How to be a good storyteller, great dad, and serious reporter in the porn industry
How to be a good storyteller, great dad, and serious reporter in the porn industry
My interview with Michael Estrin
I first came across Michael reading his garage door story on his hilarious newsletter Situation Normal. It made me nervous bc he seemed to be doing the same sorta vibe I was doing but much better and funnier than me.
And then came the LA writer’s meetup thing. I looked at the RSVP list to prepare talking points, questions, and a subtly different laugh for each person (this, my friends, is networking) when lo and also behold, I saw Michael on the list. This mf lives in LA too? Damn it. I already saw how it’d all go down: I’d walk into the bar and Michael would be holding court, everyone around him laughing at his latest effortless yet layered quip. He’d be sitting in a raised leather chair too, like a king but without the pomp.
Believe it or not, this did not happen. Instead I got there before Michael and started spreading nasty rumors about him.
No, actually I got there and he got there and though we were both awkward little turtles, we got along really well because he was super nice and funny and generous with his ideas and praise and attention and I realized for the thousandth time just how grubby of a place my brain can be.
Afterwards I asked him if I could interview him, he said yes, and here we are. I think you’re gonna really love this one.
Oh one more thing: Michael loves GIFs, so as a tribute to him, this post will feature only GIFs from 1990s Geocities sites.
IMPORTANT: Michael had so many great answers to questions that I had to cut down this interview by about 50%. That’s a lot!! But fear not — all paid subscribers can read the unedited version right here: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
And if you’re not a paid subscriber but have been thinking about becoming one, well this might just be the day. Just click here and you’ll be able to subscribe: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
The interview was edited lightly ever so lightly for grammar and flow and whatever.
Oh one more thing: Michael loves GIFs, so as a tribute to him, this post will feature only GIFs from 1990s Geocities sites.
Both Are True (BAT): You are such a good storyteller, it feels like you can weave a great story from...anything. As such, let's start here: what did you have for breakfast today?
Breakfast was wild. For context, I’m answering this question from Florida. We’re visiting my wife’s family for Christmas. We’re staying with my wife’s sister, Caroline, her partner, Ron, and their three boys: Micah, Tyler, and Evan. My mother-in-law, Pam, also lives with Caroline and Ron. Plus, they have three dogs, two ferrets, and a lot of koi. Not everyone is involved in the breakfast story, but as you know, the guilds don’t mess around when it comes to credits.
ANYWAY, I had a plain bagel with peanut butter and a protein shake. My plan was to eat a quiet breakfast at the dining room table and read the paper, but the dining room table is Caroline’s office, and Caroline is a mortgage loan processor.
So I’m sitting there eating breakfast, and Caroline is trying to close this home equity loan that’s been a pain in her butt all week. She’s on a conference call with the borrower and the mortgage broker. At first, everything sounds normal. But I’m not in the mortgage industry, so what do I know? Caroline and the mortgage broker walk the borrower through all the fees and tell her the exact amount of money she’ll actually get after closing. That’s when the borrower said she wasn’t prepared to close because she needed to talk to a guy named Dr. J.
“How do you know Dr. J?” the mortgage broker asked.
“I know him from around,” the borrower said.
“Does he work with you at the hospital?”
“No. Not per se.”
That’s when my ears perked up, and I put down the bagel. It seemed like a straightforward question, but the borrower didn’t want to explain her relationship with Dr. J.
“I know him from the community,” she said.
But she didn’t say which community, nor did she elaborate on her connection to Dr. J, who for some reason, had the final word on her finances.
The call went on with a little more chit chat and the mortgage broker reminded the borrower that she had only a few more days to close at the rate she had locked. The call ended, and Caroline hung up.
“That is some shady fucking shit,” Caroline said.
A moment later, Carloline’s phone rang. It was the mortgage broker. Turns out Dr. J is a problem. According to the mortgage broker, who crossed paths with Dr. J on another real estate deal, Dr. J isn’t a doctor! He pretends to be a doctor in order to impress people and get them to invest in his real estate schemes, which might just be real estate scams. Also, Dr. J is a convicted felon, but when the mortgage broker found Dr. J’s mugshot and confronted him, Dr. J said the mugshot was of his “evil twin.”
“This is some Florida shit,” the mortgage broker told Caroline. “No disrespect to you, but I’m not one of those dumbass Florida fucks. I’m from Philly. I know shit. This motherfucker Dr. J is scamming our client, I fucking know it.”
Suddenly, the call turned into a real ethical dilemma. On the one hand, the mortgage broker was sure that as soon as this woman tapped the equity in her home, it would end up in Dr. J’s bank account. But on the other hand, stopping scams is a bit outside the scope of a mortgage broker, and legally speaking, he can’t quite give his client advice about what to do with the money.
“I don’t want to fund this loan,” the mortgage broker said. “This guy is scamming her. I don’t want any part of it. I wanna walk away. Caroline, I wanna pay you out on this and drop the thing.”
“What if she calls back and wants to close?” Caroline asked. “You know she’s gonna talk to this Dr. J dude, and he’s gonna tell her to close, because why does he care if she gets sixty grand or sixty-five grand? It’s all free money to him.”
“I don’t know,” the mortgage broker said. “But if I see Dr. J, I’m gonna punch him in his fucking mouth because I’m from Philly and that’s how we do that. I swear, Florida is nothing but con artists and dumb-fucks waiting to conned. No shade at you, Caroline.”
So, that was breakfast. I thought it would just be some carbs, protein, and fat, but it turned into a true crime story. My attitude is something always happens, but you have to pay attention. The early bird gets the worm, but the fly on the wall gets the story.
NOTE: Dr. J is not related to Julius Erving, who is also not a doctor.
EDITOR’S UPDATE: I needed to know about what happened with Dr. J and asked Michael for an update. Here’s what he said: “The update on Dr. J is that the borrower chose not to close. So Dr. J didn’t get her money, which is a win, but he remains at large, which is a loss.”
Then, a few days later, another text came through from Michael’s sister in law:
“We keep getting updates that her tru-merged credit is being pulled so my guess is this guy has her trying to get a loan done somewhere else for more $ 🤦♀️🤦♀️”
Incredible.
(BAT): When I first found your work, I was intimidated. I finished the garage door essay and was just like fuck, that was so good I will never do anything that good; this guy is just a way better version of me, and I am scared and anxious of him. Now I can CONFIRM that to be true, but now we're friends so I'm not scared anymore because (a) I just admire and envy your skills and (b) there is enough space in the Comedic Personal Essay Universe (CPEU) for us all. My question, thus, is: How are you with competition and comparison in the writing game?
One of the things I love about writing, especially writing in the CPEU, is that you are your only real competition. I know, I know… that sounds like some woo-woo nonsense, but it’s true. I’m not a big fan of that competition/comparison stuff.
Don’t get me wrong, I do it, especially the comparison stuff because if you’re not comparing yourself to others, are you even on social media? BUT… that kind of thinking doesn’t do me any good. In fact, I think it brings out the worst in me.
Instead, I try to draw inspiration from other writers. I’ll see them push their work to a new, daring place, and I’ll push myself to do the same. Is that a competition? I don’t think so, not really. It is a way to step outside of yourself and see what others are doing and then push yourself to do better. I think that if every writer did that, they’d be better writers and their writing communities would be a lot healthier.
(BAT): Your dad is clearly a legend. I love your stories about him (this one and this one). Also he INVENTED the wireless mic for the ref. A game changer, literally. What will be the thing you invent in the world of writing / writers that is equally as mind blowing?
My dad was a legend, but to clarify, he didn’t invent the wireless mic, it was his idea to put one on an NFL referee. He loved being a pioneer in his field. If they said something couldn’t be done, my dad would be like, “challenge accepted,” and then he’d go out and do it. Once, he told me that he made a list early in his career of all the shows he wanted to do. There were things on that list like The Super Bowl, The Olympics, Papal visits, Presidential Debates, and Inaugurations. I think he managed to do everything on his list, except for a royal coronation, and that was because Queen Elizabeth outlived him.
As for me, I don’t think there’s a thing that I’ll be known for inventing. I’ll be happy if people keep reading my stories, and my audience grows, and eventually it gets to the point where fans can read a Michael story blind and say, “that’s a Michael story!”
EDITOR’S NOTE: I asked Michael for a photo of him and his dad, and he sent me the incredible one above with the giant football looming over his family. He also sent a little blurb which I dug so I’m including that too:
I was looking for a picture of me and my dad at one of his shows, but I have fewer of those than I thought, probably because he was busy and because people just didn't take nearly as many pictures in those days as we do today. Anyway, I found this one of me, my dad, and my sister, Allison, at the Super Bowl. From the credentials my sister and I are wearing, I realized that this was super bowl 29, which means this photo was taken in January of 1995. I would've been 17, and my sister 15. That super bowl was in Miami. I checked with my sister to make sure she was cool with me sharing, and she said, absolutely. Then she and I had a good laugh about 90s fashion choices and the really intense hair helmet I sported in my high school days. Anyway, that's more info than you probably need, but this request of yours inspired a nice stroll down memory lane for me and Allison, so thank you!
💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌
IMPORTANT REMINDER: There’s a much longer version of this interview available for paid subscribers here: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
And if you’re not a paid subscriber but wanna be, well today is gonna be a good day for you. Just click here and you’ll be able to subscribe: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌
(BAT): Your story about how your dad called you every day from Oman made me cry because its beautiful and also because it gives me hope for Lauren and I - our lives are crazy and we've bet on the fact that it isn't quantity of time but quality, and for our son to know how much we care about him no matter where we are, he is #1 priority. It sounds like your dad was really good at that? How was he as a dad? Any tips you can share that I could maybe employ in my role as father?
He was a wonderful father because he did a couple things consistently. The first thing is he made sure that my sister and I knew he was always thinking about us. He did that through daily phone calls when he was traveling (on average about 6 months per year). He also took us to work with him whenever we weren’t in school. On the one hand, it was cool to go to a Presidential Debate or a Super Bowl, and I know my father wanted us to have those experiences because they’re so special. But on the other hand, working on my dad’s shows was also his way of bringing us into his world. My sister, Allison, had more PA experience before she was 18 than most PAs get in an entire career. I can coil cable like nobody’s business. I think we both got our work ethic from our dad, but just being in his world demonstrated to us that we were the priority. I mean, when you go on a coffee run for the executive producer of the Olympics and he says he heard you wrote a great paper for your 9th grade history class, you realize that when your dad isn’t talking to you on the phone, he’s talking everyone’s head off about something you did.
So, what’s my advice? First, make sure you talk to Wilder everyday. Doesn’t have to be a long conversation, but it does have to be quality. Repeat that until he’s 18, and you’re golden. Second, bring Wilder into your world as much as you can. He’ll probably have to hang out, and it’ll probably be boring, but in the short-term he’ll learn to make his own fun while you work (something a lot of zoomers don’t seem to know how to do), in the medium-run he’ll develop a better understanding of the stuff you’re dealing with, and in the long-run, he’ll have a great work ethic.
(BAT): Also in general the Oman story is fucking incredible you should release it again or something more people need to know about it. This isn't a question really.
Thank you! And you make a good point about the challenge of newsletters. It’s a funny medium because on the one hand it feels lame to run a story again, but on the other hand, your audience grows over time, so eventually an old story is going to be new to the majority of your readers.
(BAT): In Ride / Share and the “I met a woman with a pet tarantula” story and much else, you seem to have this natural ability to create a conversation. I asked you about this in the comments and you said it comes from being a journalist, but can you say more about it? What are you doing, consciously and unconsciously?
One thing journalism taught me was how to ask open-ended questions and then shut the fuck up. The best answers always seem to come when there’s a lull in the conversation and the subject fills that silence with words. But journalism isn’t the only skill I’m leaning on in those conversations. My legal training taught me a lot about asking questions.
I also spent some time messing around at UCB in Los Angeles. My focus was sketch comedy, but I picked up a lot from the improv classes. You can get a lot of mileage out of mundane conversations by doing the yes/and thing. When I’m talking to a barista, or a telemarketer, or a rideshare driver, there’s a way those conversations are supposed to go. A barista might ask how you’re doing, and you can say, “good,” and then nothing will happen. Or, you can say something unexpected, something vulnerable, something a little absurd, and then because humans usually want to get along with other humans, they’ll mirror your response, and then you’re off to the races.
From there, it’s really about knowing when to shut up and let them go, and when to give a yes/and response to push the scene forward.
(BAT): Related, how do you remember the entirety of the convos? They are LONG convos? Are you approximating? What is kosher here? Or have you made all of them up??
This is a complicated question. The first thing I should tell you is that my stories are mostly true and the parts people think are fiction are always true. (EDITOR NOTE: MICHAEL IS VERY MUCH SAYING BOTH ARE TRUE HERE) The parts I make up are the connecting dialogue that gets us from A to B. Life doesn’t work like art, but when you put it together in the form of a story, you need to smooth out the rough parts, or else it reads weird. Sometimes I omit names or identifying details to protect the guilty, or the innocent. Or, I’ll change some small details that don’t really change the impact of the story to keep from embarrassing someone I care about.
Another thing you need to know is that I have some pretty serious learning disabilities and vision issues. I was a very late reader, and even when I learned to read, I had a lot of trouble getting my eyes to track from left to right without missing words. Between the ages of seven and seventeen, I went to an eye doctor and learning therapist three days a week after school, plus eye exercises at home every night. I worked really hard to be normal. I was kind of obsessed with being normal – whatever that means. What really helped was a wonderful service called Recording for the Blind. I got all my books on tape. I read and listened at the same time. I think this developed my audio memory skills, although that wasn’t the goal. The goal was just to help me do a normal amount of homework without my eyes going to shit and quitting on me. I mention this because at this point in my life, I have this ability to hear something and remember it. But I do have to focus, like I’m in school, and it’s best if I write it down immediately.
Let’s talk about porn.
— Alex Dobrenko
(BAT): Let’s talk about porn. I loved NSFW. It was funny and honest and didn’t look down on an industry that’s often the butt of cheap jokes. I also love how the backdrop of the story was the changeover from the pay for porn of the early internet to the free tubes running the show. Is there any new trend or big change that you’ve seen happening to porn since then?
Thank you! I’m really glad you enjoyed NSFW!
I’m currently working on a sequel. At the same time, I’m also writing more nonfiction about Porn Valley. I created a section inside of Situation Normal for those pieces. It’s called Smutty. So I’m sort of reconnecting, but from a distance. The first piece in Smutty is about going to the AVN porn convention and examining how the industry has changed in the decade since I left.
That piece lays out a lot of what I think has changed since I left Porn Valley. The biggest change is that porn has become a lot more mainstream than I ever thought it would. The other big change is that there’s more money in porn than when the tube sites were consolidating everything, and a good chunk of that money is making its way to individual performers, especially cam models.
I cringe a little when tech people talk about democratization, but that’s sort of what’s happening in adult’s creator economy. Finally, I think some of the worst aspects of porn – abusive producers, racist tropes, and a rigid adherence to heteronormative aesthetics – are starting to be reexamined.
I’m fortunate for two reasons. First, the timeline for my Porn Valley series begins in 2011. Second, I have Smutty. Both of these things allow me time and space to examine what’s changed since I left and really try to understand the impact of those changes.
One thing that hasn’t changed, sadly, or hasn’t changed as much as you might think, is the shame factor. Despite becoming more mainstream, a lot of performers have to deal with shaming from family, friends, and internet trolls.
(BAT): I love your post about how you hit 1000. In it, you suggest writers need to celebrate the wins. What are some recent wins you can think of?
ME: Launching Smutty is a win! I think it’s going to be a lot of fun working on book two while writing about the porn industry for Smutty.
Another win. I recently turned on paid subscriptions and people started paying. Imagine that!
Well ya heard the man! Go and subscribe and also pay him, he’s worth it he’s Mabeline.
💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌
DID YOU LOVE THE INTERVIEW BUT WANT MUCH MORE OF IT? Great. There’s a much longer version of this interview available for paid subscribers here: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
And if you’re not a paid subscriber but wanna be, well today is gonna be a good day for you. Just click here and you’ll be able to subscribe: Michael Estrin: Raw, Unedited, Uncut.
💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌💯💛💌
Alright that wraps up BAT for today. As always, there’s a few things you can do to help feed the bottomless pit that is my self-esteem:
💨 Subscribe - free is good paid is bettah (Adam Sandler in Bill Madison)
🆒 Share - with friends is good, with moneyed friends is bettah
♻ Comment - alone is good, in a group is bettah i guess! The comment party is happening over here though, so come on over:
Some questions to “jumpstart” “the conversation”
Do you know where the title Situation Normal comes from?
What other questions do y’all have for Michael? I have it on good record that he’ll pop into these comments and respond (unconfirmed - I need to ask Michael about this…Michael: u good w this lmk?)
What do you think is going on with Dr. J?
What was your fav part of the interview?
Anyone y’all want me to interview? Lemme know.
What else, what else….
Love Michael’s work. I found the part about dialogue super interesting. It seems he’s blessed with some funny people in his life, as well. There are times when his wife or sister will rattle off a great punchline and then his job is to capture that.
Question for Michael: I’m curious how you organize your writing life. If i understand correctly, writing Situation Normal isn’t your full-time deal. How/where/why/when do you find the time to write your stories?
dear alex,
i love you and i love this.
things i specifically love about this:
-- peanut butter
-- you are your only real competition
-- bring Wilder into your world as much as you can
-- you can say something unexpected, something vulnerable, something a little absurd, and then because humans usually want to get along with other humans, they’ll mirror your response, and then you’re off to the races.
thank you again, both of you!
love,
myq